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Post by loulou on May 18, 2005 9:57:05 GMT -5
as everyone knows i am from the uk and things are quite different for the herps over here.
one man i have been talking to recently used to be a successful iguana iguana , Cyclura nubila nubila and the Cyclura cornuta cornuta breeder before the iguana iguana became swamped in the market and people started dumping them.now the interesting thing is this man never ever used UV (and i an NOT saying do not uv to anybody) he used D3 drops instead with a 99% success rate. now he has given me all his research that im slowly reading through and digesting but i was wondering if there are any of you out there that have used or do use D3 successfully without the use of UV light bulbs but with the use of the natural sunlight occasionally. i know iguanas like the albino iguana iguana must have these drops as the uv strips and power suns are highly irrative towards the skin and cause the iguana uncalled for complications and pain.
please admin or mod remove this if you feel its a delicate subject that may cause problems for your site but i have never really thought about asking canadians and americans this question before i have only had the english to ask and you may have information i have not yet found
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Post by Marie on May 18, 2005 10:37:58 GMT -5
The research you are talking about is it published yet and is it possible for you to pass it on? I know I would be interested.
I seen those D3 drops but had seen on the boards that D3 supplements could be from anywhere from useless to harmful. So I have never tried them. Also I think that when possible we should provide our pets with what they need naturally.
Everyone,
This is only a discussion of opinion and thoughts. No one here is advocating the use of D3 drops or supplements in place of the required proper UVB lighting. Also this is a just one breeder and not a scientific research or study. Please do not consider not providing your animal with the UVB that it needs.
Marie
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Post by loulou on May 18, 2005 10:42:19 GMT -5
it is not published yet no but i will get his permission and if all is ok i will pass the information to you via email
oh and i forgot to add thank you marie for the extra warning that i am not saying animals dont need uv i appreciate it
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Post by Marie on May 19, 2005 2:56:10 GMT -5
Well I have thought about the breeder and him having success with the D3 drops/supplements. He most likely did not raise them for too long so the effects of the drops and lack of UVB may not show during the time he had them.
I asked a few people that I know are very knowledgeable in this area what they thought of the drops. This is what I have received so far
He works with Melissa Kaplan as a moderator at the IML.
Marie
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Post by loulou on May 19, 2005 3:12:52 GMT -5
thats really interesting thankyou marie and thank you to roger that will be something il be printing off and adding to my file
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Post by Dominick on May 19, 2005 10:00:30 GMT -5
This is a sensitive topic and has been discussed to death on the AIML, even recently.
There are studies that show that exogenous UVB will keep an iguana healthy enough to skirt most problems. But why would you provide only the bare minimum of care to a "sun basking" reptile? Not to mention using a very unnatural method?
There are many reasons why sun-basking reptiles use natural sunlight. It obviously provides UV radiation including UVB and UVA, as well as the useful fuller spectrum of light necessary for a healthy and happy iguana. But it also provides overhead warmth to allow them to properly thermo-regulate, and enables the parietal eye to detect the light and dark cycles necessary for psychological health. It's not just about the UVB.
We have strived for decades now to first figure out and then adjust the iguana's husbandry to increase their life span in captivity and keep them healthier through their lifetime. And we learn more and more every day.
IMO, trying to create a "magic pill" to assist the iguana keeper in simplifying the care is decidedly human. Mother nature has enabled these animals to survive and thrive for thousands of years, without our help. It is the responsibility of ANY keeper to provide the best possible care that closely mimics nature as much as possible, not as simply as possible.
Take a look at Zoos. When I was young you visited the Bronx Zoo, entered various buildings and viewed the creatures in cages, enclosures and tanks up close, all very unnatural for the creatures. As we progressed in our understanding of ALL the things creatures require to survive, we discovered that it was best for them to present them in a more natural setting. It helped them cope better with captivity, reduced stress (even if we can no longer see them half the time) and increased their captive life along with their penchant to breed naturally. We 'learned' all of this by doing it wrong for so long. And many animals suffered along the way.
So, why would anyone consider an "easier" alternative to required care? Yes, the creature may very well survive, just like the tigers in the cages that got raw meat thrown at them twice a day. But the tigers forgot how to "hunt" for food, got lazy, fat and unhealthy. The iguana may very well forget how to thermo-regulate or process vitamin D3 in the skin.
And lastly (who slipped this soapbox under my feet? LOL). A "breeder" said all of this. No offense but Breeders rank very low on my scale of ethics, morals and most certainly information. They're in the business of making money. Breeders feed baby igs meat to make them grow faster and bigger. They could care less that they shaved 10 years off their life. The money will have already been collected and spent before it comes up. So, my respect for them is scant at best.
I too would be interested in seeing the "study". I would enjoy it being posted to the AIML (some of the best iguana experts in the country) and see what their input is. From my experience, breeders take the "oh shut up, I've raised thousands of healthy animals with my method" attitude. I've rarely seen one that is open to suggestion and debate for the BENEFIT of the creatures.
Now one last thing. I know Roger well, met him in CA last year. The man knows his business and I respect him for it. He states:
"The vit D they make in their skin might have a slightly different chemical structure. UVB at a slightly different wavelength destroys vit D."
This is a slight misnomer. I have been involved with this particular discussion intimately with several people, including the author who first uncovered this phenomenon. He has corrected that statement on the AIML. It's minor, but relevant. "Destroys" is too strong a word for this particular case. More accurate is "limits". This phenomenon is considered the self-limiting process inherent in iguana physiology which prevents them from overdosing on UVB exposure. Their body uses a specific range of UVB light (290-310nm range) to biophotosynthesize D3. Anything above the range becomes effectively ineffective (thereby the word "destroy" was used inaccurately). In reality the UVB is converted to a inoccuous chemical compound and absorbed into the body.
Because of this statment a rash of discussion, debate and even argument was born. So, to be fair to the author (Jukka Lindgren) who first discussed the phenomenon, let's all understand that UVB is not "destructive" in that sense. The iguana's body is simply doing what it has been doing for many, many years, self-regulating. Would be great if our bodies did the same, huh?
Best to all!
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Post by loulou on May 19, 2005 10:56:41 GMT -5
thank you dominick this is exactly the response i was looking for a healthy debate with not just a "no im going to stamp my feet" but actual facts and information that has been discussed and analised in the past
i resect your response to this i do not agree with the breeders opinion as i have a habit of taking each and every person at face value and not putting them all in the same category but as i said thats your opinion and this is mine.
but your insight into the uvb and d3 is something i find quite interesting,
thankyou again i will go through what you have said properly when i am away from work and at home with my paperwork
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Post by Dominick on May 19, 2005 11:09:24 GMT -5
Greetings Loulou- Two more things: www.reptileuvinfo.com to read many published studies about these sorts of things. Also, some friends of mine have published the best, most comprehensive reptile UV lighting article in REPTILE CARE Magazine. It's a 3 parter and I think #1 is already published. Please refer to that article (since they are all on your side of the pond). It contains great information about the nature of UVR use in reptiles. Cheers to you! |
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Post by ChamZilla on May 19, 2005 20:32:34 GMT -5
WOW that was a lot of information in this post to soak up! I'm going to have to read it a few times! Compaired to you guys I feel pretty out of the loop here, well in this conversation.  |
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Post by Marie on May 19, 2005 23:40:03 GMT -5
And
Marie
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Post by Patrick Kubeja on May 20, 2005 3:08:01 GMT -5
Hi Guys
I have been watching this thread But Denise and I are on are way home from Calf. and we are in New Mexico now.
But I have read simailiar things on the Vit. D Thing.
But have to Get home before I can post further on this!
But for me they need UV! and that is all I have to say right now! I wasn't going to answer this Thread till I got home but couldn't resist!
Patrick
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Post by nicolerussell on May 20, 2005 6:13:58 GMT -5
When people bring this up---and it's brought up with many lizards species---I always wonder how it can be debated at all.
If you look at the sun being the best possible choice--lighting would be the second best choice. The animal will still be creating what it needs and absorbing the necessary things to synthesize D3...and whatever else we know nothing about yet.
Ultimately, whether your a scientist or a person who knows very little about anything---it stands to reason that the simplest explaination is the most accurate in many situations.
Duirnal lizards require uvb for a chemical reaction in their bodies. If we keep it simple --and let the animal do what it was created to do, I believe it will be healthier for that husbandry choice.
Adding chemicals to play God---or be cheap or lazy --is something that will hurt the animal ---I mean does anyone know the exact amount each species should get? Is it different each day or dependant an age or health?
No one really has the answers to this.
It sounds like whoever thought of that to begin with is probably a bit sadistic in their curiosity about saving cash.
It's a no brainer to me.
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Post by Marie on May 20, 2005 7:21:47 GMT -5
:(Hey Everyone Just to let you know this message has been modified. So if things don't flow smoothly in the next posts that is why. I do apologize if this causes confusion. When people bring this up---and it's brought up with many lizards species---I always wonder how it can be debated at all. Well Nicole the reason for this thread was not so much to debate the issue as to give some relevant and informative information to our members. Loulou had some information from a breeder and she was willing to be open minded about it and posed a question on this forum im slowly reading through and digesting but i was wondering if there are any of you out there that have used or do use D3 successfully without the use of UV light bulbs but with the use of the natural sunlight occasionally.....but i have never really thought about asking canadians and americans this question before i have only had the english to ask and you may have information i have not yet found So I decided to help this young woman in her search for the information. I knew that there was really no debate about it. But in the interest of learning and knowledge I decided to push this thread through. I started it off letting everyone know this was only a discussion--a fact gathering. That the study was not scientific and done by a breeder. Also that it was important to provide proper UVB to their reptiles. I thought that all the information that came out of the discussion was very educational and relevant. There are many new and old reptile owners out there that may not know all that was discussed in this thread. And if we can reach any of them at all with this information and make them understand the importance of providing the proper UVB then this discussion was a success. I am sure Loulou will take what she has learned here and pass it on and that also makes it a success. Recently I noticed on a larger message board that I frequent that a regular poster to it was not posting any longer. And before all his messages could disappear from the board I found that he had left his email in his posts. I contacted him and came to find out that he quit posting partly (only partly) due to the fact that he felt a little intimidated by the more knowledgable posters on the board. He thought the board was the greatest and was very grateful for all the help he recieved but there it stood. And I did not want any member here to leave because they felt intimidated. When people bring this up---and it's brought up with many lizards species---I always wonder how it can be debated at all.....It's a no brainer to me. Nicole you have a tone and style of writing that is very blunt and matter of fact and that is not necessaily a bad thing. But that depends on the audience you are directing your message to. We have an audience here that has found that they enjoy the friendly and open attitude that we have here and we found that type of atmosphere works best here. I do not want any of our members to feel that their questions are not worthy of debate or discussion or that it is being dismissed. I always have believed that learning needs no justification and that is what the goal was here. Nicole you are highly knowledgeable and you definitely know your stuff. I was glad that you joined but I am glad when any new member joins--highly knowledgeable or newbie. And I did not want any of the members to feel they could not pose a question. I don't feel this got heated at all....did I miss something ? LOL My previous response may have been the cause for this impression. I apologize to the forum for that because it didn't get all that heated. Well that being said, I would like to thank everyone that posted a response to this post. I know that Loulou really appreciated all the information. Take Care  Marie |
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Post by loulou on May 20, 2005 14:58:16 GMT -5
thank you guys for all the intersting replies i would just like to point out i didnt start this thread with the intention of changing from powersuns to D3 i was just intersted to hear what people have to say about it and i think i got the response i was expecting.
there was some brilliant links and some very interesting information that i will be digesting and i would like to thank marie for her help and her contacts help.
now mods i knew when i started this thread that it may get heated and peole are very passionate which is understandable and if you would like to lock or delete it then please do,
thank you again to everyone that helped me and gave me some interesting information
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Post by Marie on May 20, 2005 15:18:48 GMT -5
Loulou, I want to thank you for posting. This was a very educational discussion for the most part. As I mentioned learning shouldn't have to be justified. I myself do not plan to lock or delete it. Especially since Patrick wants to reply also. All the information in it will remain to be available to the members. We are a pretty much an open forum here. Our goal is to have a friendly and fun place to share our experiences with our herps and to learn from each other. So do not worry about posting any question or comment you have. As long as you are respectful to the other members and the forum itself you can ask away. Thanks Marie |
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