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Post by zachbaker on Mar 21, 2005 12:39:31 GMT -5
I have been told that sand is bad for my beardies and sand is ok. I am gonna change it due to the fact that it is hard to clean anyway. I was thinking about carpet but have been told that it is to hard to clean also. I like the idea of having carpet instead of sand or newspaper. Newspaper was suggested to me but that doesnt look good in the cage and it cant be that hard to clean. If it is someone please explain to me the pros and cons of having each substrate. I want my tank to look good but easy to clean and safe for my beardies.
what do the rest of you beardie owners think I should do. Do any of you use sand? If so have any of you had your beardies suffer sand impaction? Let me know. Thanks Zach
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Post by Steven on Mar 21, 2005 16:15:34 GMT -5
Newspaper is easily disposal and carpet can get nasty and their nails can get stuck in it.
I used to use sand 'back in the day' but it wasn't long enough for impaction to occur. Impaction builds up over time, there is no telling when it can happen. I didn't like sand very much because it was very dusty and would get everywhere! It also is not very clean because of the dragons waste spreading through the sand. And right when I heard it can hurt my dragons I quickly changed.
Good luck,
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Post by gimlimakaio on Mar 21, 2005 16:16:04 GMT -5
sand is not a good substrate for bearded dragons. i personally recommend news paper or paper towels. having a paper substrate such as these may not be the best looking deal, but it makes cleaning a heck of a lot easier. what kind of carpet are you talking about to use? any fabric type of carpet would soak up the liquid in your dragons poo, and that is where bacteria starts. once again, i recommend newspaper.
the rule for lizards: if the package says 'safe and digestable', then stay away from it.
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Post by zachbaker on Mar 21, 2005 21:43:58 GMT -5
Well I went and bought carpet from home depot and put it in my beardie cages. They dont seem to have a problem with their nails catching the carpet and as far as the bacteria is concerned cant I just pull the carpet and wash it every couple of days to make sure the bacteria doesnt go very far. If I were to clean the carpet with vinegar wont that kill the bacteria in the carpet? I have heard vinegar can kill bacteria. If I am wrong then someone tell me that I am. I will try the carpet as long as I can until I find out if it was a bad idea in the first place. The carpet I used is exactly the same which is offered at the pet stores for twice as much the price. I got it at $3.00 ft. I bought about 6ft of carpet. I saw a local breeders dragons and he owns many many dragons. I saw wood shavings in his breeder cages and they clean it daily and their were about 5 or 6 dragons in each cage. Why wouldnt it be a good idea to use wood shavings? Why would you tell me one thing and someone who has breeded dragons for several years and he isnt just like 20-30 years old he is 60 years old and has done it for along time. Im not telling you where I saw this because he told me to present you with what he had in his cages and see what you said. Im sure you will tell me he is an idiot and such but should I listen to someone who has breeded dragons successfully for a few years or someone who has just a couple of dragons. I am looking at all possible scenario's here and have come up with what I thought was in my best interest with raising my dragons. If you would like to give me your input on this that would be good. I just need to know what you think of these thought's as far as what I should do for my dragons. You all need to know why I am leveling out the pros and cons of substrate's. I have been told so many different things it's hard to seperate the bullcrap from the truth. So tell me which is bullcrap.
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Post by gimlimakaio on Mar 21, 2005 23:29:33 GMT -5
wood shavings are one of the worst things to use for a substrate. a healthy dragon will taste its surroundings, and in doing so, will swallow some of whatever kind of loose substrate you are using. it does not happen overnight, but the substrate will eventually pack up inside the dragon and will cause death if it is not caught soon enough. it may take a few months or a few years. i would rather house my dragons on washed playsand than on wood shavings. if the dragon does manage to pass some wood shavings, there is a huge risk of the intestines getting torn while the wood is passing.
i choose the health of my dragon over the look of what it is housed on. i do not agree with loose substrates, feeding mealworms, or feeding mice. i have seen the outcomes of what can happen when you feed mice/mealies or when you house dragons on loose substrate. that is why i do not agree with any of it.
the age thing also got to me. being 18 years old, i think it is absurd how many people judge knowledge on the age factor. age has nothing to do with how smart you are. choosing to learn about a subject is what determines what you will know, and you dont have to be 60 years old to do so.
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Post by zachbaker on Mar 22, 2005 14:05:40 GMT -5
It wasnt about the age it was about the experience he has. He has done breeded many dragons through the years and by many I mean alot of them not just a few clutches of dragons. Why does he use wood shavings in his breeder cages? He may have been breeding dragons as long as you have been alive so that would make me more concerned about what he tells me than many other people tell me. He says I should do what I think is best for my beardies not what he says or what advice I receive on some forum. I realize this forum is a profit making forum and Patricks website has got to be a money maker also. Thats why I choose to take all the advice I get but doesnt the calcilite sand offered in the pet stores say it is digestable. I soak my dragons in warm water each day which obviously causes them to release their droppings. In turn doesnt this help the dragons clear some of the sand that could be taken in by feeding or when they always lick things like the sand. On the package of sand it says it contains calcium which is good for dragons but you tell me not to use it because it can cause sand impaction. The carpet liner I put in the cage did stink after they pooped on it but when I cleaned it the carpet didnt stink anymore.
As long as I clean the carpet daily or whenever I see droppings on it all I have to do is just take a sponge and clean that spot. I will take the carpet out weekly and soak it in hot water and vinegar to kill bacteria and the smell that may be left behind by my dragon droppings. What do you guys think about that.
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Post by jeremyhaas on Mar 22, 2005 16:51:47 GMT -5
there are pros and cons with almost everything. yes, newspaper is tacky but it is easy, the carpet you have, I belive is great, It has a tight knit back which leaves the odds of toe snagging about the same as they have on a branch, it is indoor/outdoor carpet which is plastic that is thick enough they would have a hard time ripping or removing and ingesting any of the fibers and the plastic shouldn't be able to absorb anything, the down side is the necessity for constant cleaning. I think I would have two pads for each cage when one gets soiled on remove it and replace with the other mat, this will give you the window between soilings to soke the others. I know there are several anti bacterial cleaners(bleach, vinigar,lysol,etc) however I am not sure if any of them would release toxic fumes after rinsing. You may have to allow for dry time after rinsing to allow the vapors time to be released. Hope this helps.
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Post by Steven on Mar 22, 2005 17:06:33 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if someone breeds 4 million dragons in their lifetime; someone who hasn't even bred dragons before could make better choices then breeders. I know a lot breeders and I have talked to them and I know they use sand and I have bought dragons from them, but I put that dragon right onto a safer substrate, I dont use sand just because he lived on sand before. Alot of breeders use sand or wood chips or w/e because they have TONS of dragons and they think just scooping out those droppings everyday is easier, but is it safer? I'm sure breeders have had their dragons die on sand, and I'm sure they wont tell their customers that, that would be dumb! So they act like the substrate is ok, but its not!
You can choose what you want to do with your beardies; like I said, they are some people who care about their enclosure looks more then the safety of their animal, who do you want to be?
Steven
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Post by gimlimakaio on Mar 22, 2005 17:29:15 GMT -5
zachbaker:
i am not sure if i understood your post completely... you sort of ranted for a bit, but i got the impression that you believe that calci-sand is digestible. it is NOT. even if you soak your dragon in hot water every ten minutes, it will not help.
i am tired of the silly substrate debates. if you want to learn the hard way, go right ahead and do it.
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Post by zachbaker on Mar 22, 2005 20:27:07 GMT -5
I wasnt trying to rant at all but that is what happens when I am trying to debate a topic. I understand you are tired of the substrate issue so dont post any replies. I was just making the point in general to what I was looking at as far as the pros and cons of substrate. My information has been filtered so much it is hard to tell the truth about what I should really do. Like I have been saying about the sand. I dont think calcilite is good for my beardies but I guess it doesnt make sense to me why they would advertise it as digestable for dragons. If it causes impaction and Im sure they would know this before they put the product out in stores why would they do that? I guess they do anything to sell a product these day. I never said it was ok to use sand but in raising my dragons I had them on sand for a full year and no impaction. I just changed to carpet liner and love it. If it gets soiled then I replace it for which I also purchase extra carpet for just in case. If you think it is a problem read what Jeremy posted above and see if you think he is right about it. He has seen my cages and thinks they look better without sand in them and safer at this point. So did I do the right thing by changing to carpet liner? Well I did change substrates so no one will hassle me about the sand issue. I was just making a point that I have seen several different set ups and dont understand why they would even say use sand or wood shavings in a cage when it is bad for them in the first place. I guess its all about the money when it comes down to it in the reptile industry.
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Post by elizabeth on Mar 22, 2005 21:40:44 GMT -5
Just a suggestion I read somewhere on the carpet substrate would be to have two pieces so while one is being cleaned and disinfected for the next use you have a piece you can put in there! In the end this could be a costly choice if you have to replace it too often so keep that in mind... I have used in my iggy's enclosure white butcher paper it is easy clean up and all that plus it is plain white so doesn't look bad... You can actually get large rolls of it from art supply stores, teacher supply stores etc and it is inexpensive generally, this being if you are truly opposed to newspaper! It is good that you are getting the opinions from other beardie owners on the subject that is one of the best ways to learn... As to places and products that advertise that they are safe for your pet... Well they want your $$ in the end the health of your pet it not their top concern most often... Just like the hot rocks that pet stores will sell to unsuspecting iguana owners where as anyone will tell them to cut the cord if they own one due to burns... So products like that and what have you it is always good to do research and ask your questions epecially if you have the time to do it before you jump in head first... Good luck with the carpeting... Watch for the nail catching sounds like the biggie and make sure you clean it really well everytime you take it out!!  |
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Post by zachbaker on Mar 23, 2005 13:44:29 GMT -5
Thank you for your support and Ideas elizabeth. They were very helpful. I will definately check out what you adviced to me. Thank you all for your hospitality in helping me figure out what would be in my best interest. I know you all think I should do what is best for my beardies. I not only want that but whats best for their cage design also. I dont think the presentation of my cages can be bad and my dragons health be a problem in the end. I was just looking to do both and meet the best for me and my dragons presentation. Thank you once again and you all have provided me with helpful hints in taking care of my dragons. Zach
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Post by Steven on Mar 23, 2005 16:46:14 GMT -5
Well think of it this way, if you use a dangerous substrate and just concentrate on the look of the cage just to impress people, then you wont have anything in the cage to show off because your beardie will die from impaction. Just tell the people who come over that you care more your animal surviving then how it looks and if you dont like it then I dont care. That should be your attitude because the health of your dragon should be your main priority, not the cage. I if you want a nice cage, build one, and stick sand or w/e in there but dont put an animal in the cage, just have a nice empty cage in your house, lol! Just make the right choices for your bearide  |
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Post by Marie on Mar 23, 2005 20:58:41 GMT -5
I feel that you have such beautiful beardies that everyone will be looking at them and won't notice or care so much about the enclosure/tank.
Marie
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Post by geekcoboy103 on Mar 23, 2005 21:08:20 GMT -5
Exactly.
If you want it to be safe and look good at the same time...
Go to Homne Depot (or Lowes) and buy 'Wild Bird Seed'.
DO NOT BUY IT FROM A PET STORE.
Pet store brands have added sugars and 'treats'.
There are rumors that it molds when wet, it does not.
If it gets wet, small plants will begin to grow, just reach in and pick them out when they occur.
If the Bearded dragon eats it, no big deal, it's made for eating.
If it is dusty when you dump it out, rinse water through it.
Then blow dry it.
I think it looks very cool.
And no matter what ANYONE says, sand is sand, and bad is bad.
Sand is ROCK.
Rocks aren't something your mother would feed you, so don't be the father who feeds his kids rocks.
Good luck.
-collin
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