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Post by zachbaker on Oct 17, 2005 11:54:14 GMT -5
While I was sitting around with Jeremy yesterday we got to talking about dragons and feeding requirements.
He told me that he had heard of people feeding pinky mice to adult dragons. I have also heard it before. I was curious as to why everyone else I have talked to said not to but then couldnt explain why I shouldnt feed them to my dragons. I know they could have a problem digesting them but if fed everyonce and awhile wouldnt be bad enough for them to cause problems. I would say if a under the tank heater were in place the digestive process can be helped considiring heat helps their digestive process. I can say soaking the dragons will also help them process the food out of their system better. They say pinky mice are high in fat and protein. I say if they feed them to Tokay Geckos on a regular basis and they can easily digest them what does this mean for dragons who can easily out grow Tokay Geckos. I am not sure how similar the digestive systems of Tokay geckos and dragons are but it sounds as if the dragons wont have to much trouble digesting them. I did feed my dragons a pinky mice each and they absolutely loved them. I am considiring feeding them one every other week or so. What do all of you think?
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Post by Patrick Kubeja on Oct 18, 2005 8:03:31 GMT -5
Hey Zach
Well this is a good Question not really a Debate but a good Question. Now for me I do not see a problem with feeding a Pinky mouse every so often as a Treat NOT AS A Diet Item. But I would say once a month as a treat or every 2 weeks would be fine. Now I have heard of people giving there Dragons Pinkies as Treat but you have to watch because they are high in fat and protien and you do not want your dragon getting Fat!
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Post by Dominick on Oct 18, 2005 8:54:42 GMT -5
I feed Mr. Stubbs a small pinkie once a month. He's full grown and it helps with calcium levels and protein. Should not be a daily or weekly thing though.
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Post by loulou on Oct 18, 2005 14:36:05 GMT -5
i feed mine pinkies every now and again as said by other once a month or 2 months but i always give my females a pinie after they have laid eggs they are high in calcium and the extra boost cant be a bad thing
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Post by Steven on Oct 20, 2005 22:17:08 GMT -5
I disagree with feeding pinkies at all to beardies! They are really high in fat and really not healthy for them at all. They are hard to digest and they dont always digest everything. One mouse can cause problems. You should not always go by what they might eat or live on in the wild because they life-span of them in the wild does not compare to the longer life span in captivity. If your looking for a way to help your dragon gain some weigh, worms such as silkies and superworms work the best. You dont need a non-healthy pinkie to do it. Its obviously your choice, but it is taking a risk in the health of your dragon, even if fed every month.
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Post by zachbaker on Oct 21, 2005 0:20:14 GMT -5
Why do they feed them to Tokay Geckos then? I have heard of a gecko that has been feeding on pinky mice and crickets for most of its life span. Its has outlived its expected life span. My dragons past those mice with no problem. Dragons outgrow Tokay Geckos. When I fed them Superworms they would take them down then spit them out after they had been chewed up alot. When you say to feed them superworms are you giving me advice because thats what you feed them? How many times a week do you feed them superworms?
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Post by reptilianmaster on Nov 3, 2005 23:49:42 GMT -5
silkworm/waxworms do more damage than the occassional pink mouse and superworms/waxworms are generally a poor diet anyway due to high content of chitin and they are digested very well as bearded dragons are omnivores so animal protein is easy compared to the many vegetables they eat and ive found mealworm/superworms to be indigestible
i feed my bearded dragons small mice occassionally when the snakes refuse them to stop them going to waste and they are fit as a fiddle and eats like a horse like most beardies do and its a change to crickets and locusts and is good for expectant females to get some much needed proteins and nutrients as i dip the head in calcium as i do with such things as leopard geckoes and other lizards i keep and have kept and there is no risk of impaction because its either the substrate or something else as ive never had a case of impaction when using mice and my beardies over the years have produced me eggs so these findings are unresearched and false as i know many breeders who recommend pink mice as treats as is stated in the bearded dragon information and books
methods are different yes but favouring one opinion over another which happened on a previous post is not ok,diversity in reptilekeeping of methods that are very successful has always fascinated me and everyone should not be made to favour one opinion over another if it reaches the same goals=healthy bearded dragons
i have kept rankins(2nd speices of lizard i ever kept) and bearded dragons(5th after berber skinks and anolis) since a young age and have always used mice as treats when adult
***reptilianmaster****
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Post by Steven on Nov 5, 2005 0:50:15 GMT -5
Ok, #1, I"m not going to argue about this cause its a an EXPERIENCE and OPINION subject. It has been proven that people's dragons have died from impaction of pinkie mice, so I choose NOT to take the risk of my dragons getting hurt. I dont care what you say, there is a risk to feeding mice to bearded dragons! #2. silkworms are the healthiest thing you can feed a bearded dragon! SO I dont know what your talking about with silkworms being worse then pinkies. Each silkworm= 3-4 crickets and they are way more nutritous then a cricket or pinkie. Silkworms are soft bodied and are easily digested! Superworms are treats only! They do not contain as much chitin as mealworms do. I strongly appose mealworms! They cause impaction as well. I have had a lot of breeders tell me that sand is ok and that feeding pinkies ok, but they also dont like to change their ways of taking care of their animals sometimes. Just because one or more breeders tell you that pinkies are ok, does NOT mean that they are! And no, you dont have to take my advice into consideration or change your ways, its your decision, ALL I"M SAYING IS THAT PINKIES AREN"T COMPLETELY DIGESTIBLE AND THEY CAN CAUSE IMPACTION AND SERIOUSLY HURT YOUR DRAGON, there is a RISK!
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Post by zachbaker on Nov 5, 2005 1:14:41 GMT -5
No one is saying that you should argue about it steven. Your input has been very welcome on my part. I actually was curious because I have talked and seen a man who breeds dragons for a hobby and not as a reptile supplier. He doesnt do this to make money. He loves his dragons as much as the next man. He said in his experience from breeding and owning dragons for years that he himself has never seen a dragon die from impaction of the stomach from eating pinky mice. I am curious as to where your information is coming from so I may see it myself. I beleive you know what you are talking about. No one said you were wrong but if you look at the evidence it just doesnt add up. First off where did you see a dragon die from eating pinky mice? Was that dragon offered other items of food than a pinky mice? By the way just incase you think that I dont listen to what advice people give me about my animals. I will tell you that back when I first became a member of the site I started a thread about bearded dragon substrate. You claimed that sand causes impaction and is hard to clean up. I since then tried many different substrates and did find newspaper easier to clean up so I switched to that. I took your advice on that one and switched. I just wanted to see how others worked out first before I went on the newspaper thing. So now comes the question I have been asking all along. Does a Tokay gecko owner take a risk by giving it pinky mice? If not what is the difference between a dragons digestive tract and tokay geckos? Why is it dangerous for a dragon and not for a Tokay gecko? It seems as if my question from the start wasnt really answered completely. I dont want to argue about it but I do want evidence. Thanks STEVEN. Your advice is taken in and Im sure noone on this board is trying to upset you or make you argue your point until you are sick of it. I am asking for the evidence thats all.
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Post by reptilianmaster on Nov 5, 2005 9:01:48 GMT -5
Ok, #1, I"m not going to argue about this cause its a an EXPERIENCE and OPINION subject. It has been proven that people's dragons have died from impaction of pinkie mice, so I choose NOT to take the risk of my dragons getting hurt. I dont care what you say, there is a risk to feeding mice to bearded dragons! #2. silkworms are the healthiest thing you can feed a bearded dragon! SO I dont know what your talking about with silkworms being worse then pinkies. Each silkworm= 3-4 crickets and they are way more nutritous then a cricket or pinkie. Silkworms are soft bodied and are easily digested! Superworms are treats only! They do not contain as much chitin as mealworms do. I strongly appose mealworms! They cause impaction as well. I have had a lot of breeders tell me that sand is ok and that feeding pinkies ok, but they also dont like to change their ways of taking care of their animals sometimes. Just because one or more breeders tell you that pinkies are ok, does NOT mean that they are! And no, you dont have to take my advice into consideration or change your ways, its your decision, ALL I"M SAYING IS THAT PINKIES AREN"T COMPLETELY DIGESTIBLE AND THEY CAN CAUSE IMPACTION AND SERIOUSLY HURT YOUR DRAGON, there is a RISK! i can't say ive ever heard of impaction in bearded dragons or any lizard due to the occassional mouse which is welcomed as as i said the coarseness of the vegetation they eat means they can digest animal protein very well and im sure theyd eat much worse things in the wild which they digest. i know many people who feed their dragons pink mice and the dragons are fit,healthy and breed every year and if the impaction due to occassional mice is true im sure a lot would not do it but in 10 years of reptilekeeping i have never heard of that and i know people with 15-20 years that swear by mice as treats for their charges. silkworms are like mice,good in small amounts but are more dangerous than mice as they stay in the system and impaction is a blockage in the system caused by indigestible things such as sand and bark chips but in moderation mice do have a beneficial effect in lizards particularly gravid females but theres risks in everything,crickets biting your animals,paralysis and choking by locust legs i get checks for my reptiles every few months and my beardies are not showing signs of any impaction or digestive problems yes its one opinion but no need to force it down everyones throat and no need to increase your writing,im perfectly capable of reading your writing at regular level and i see no sudden risks in feeding mice to my animals and will continue to do so Zach i keep tokays too and they do love the pinkies,any lizard that is big enough can take mice as variety is the key to healthy lizards |
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Post by Patrick Kubeja on Nov 5, 2005 10:48:22 GMT -5
Hey Reptilianmaster Lets not say any lizard only animal Protien eating Lizards LOL!!!!  |
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Post by Marie on Nov 5, 2005 10:48:29 GMT -5
as i said the coarseness of the vegetation they eat means they can digest animal protein very well and im sure theyd eat much worse things in the wild which they digest. ......any lizard that is big enough can take mice as variety is the key to healthy lizards I wasn't going to get into this because I do not know a lot about Bearded Dragons but there are a few things that I must comment on. Just because a lizard can digest something and may eat it in the wild given the chance does not mean it is good for them. Green iguanas are big enough to take a mouse and can digest animal protein. They will eat it in the wild and captivity given the chance (they are opportunistic eaters) but if they eat it on a regular basis (even just once a month) it will damage their kidneys. Just because something can be digested or just because they would eat it in the wild does not mean it is healthy. In fact some things are downright unhealthy. Now there are somethings that are not good for an animal in large quantities but can be given to an animal occasionally. These items are the items you give occasionally for variety. There is a lot of things in our diet that we can and do eat that is highly unhealthy but we and no one else are responsible for our own health. A captive animal does not have the freedom of getting what they want. They have to eat what we give so it is our responsibility as keepers to give the healthiest diet that we can. Now as for Bearded Dragons I do not know what is healthy or unhealthy for them at this point in time so I will not say if it is right or wrong to feed them pinkies. Now try to keep this debate informative but keep it nice please. |
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Post by reptilianmaster on Nov 5, 2005 10:59:40 GMT -5
patrick i may not know much about green iguanas but i know that they are primarily herbivirious lizards so i personally would keep to that diet and any protein at any level would cause them serious problems
bearded dragons are omnivorious so will tackle animal and plant matter so the risks in using mice isn't there and from what i mean by suitable sized lizards i mean waterdragons,basilisks,grassland monitors and pygmy monitors,blue tongued skinks and other lizards
i am more than aware of the diet needs of iguanids and wouldn't dream of feeding a 5ft iguana rodents as it poses a huge risk to its health
i see this debate as one sided to stevens views but hasn't shown a scrap of evidence of the findings
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Post by Steven on Nov 5, 2005 11:19:48 GMT -5
Reptilianmaster- No I dont have visual or written evidence of this, but I have heard of it happening and when I first got into the dragon business, everyone was telling me that they were not a good prey item, so I chose not risk it if there were people saying it was bad. So I know theres no evidence but its just something you have to trust or believe in (which some people do and some people dont, its their choice) And I'm sorry I got upset up there and capitalized my letters(that wasn't meant to be yelling, more of a "look at this" kind of thing).
Marie mad such a good point- You can't compare an animals life in the wild and in captivity, bearded dragons dont know any better in the wild, they will eat anything that moves or doesn't move, but is that good for them? of course not. Pinkies are not just hard to digest, they are very high in fat which is not healthy.
Zachbaker- Pinkies are high in fat and can be troubling to digest in any case, if thats feeding a bearded dragon or a tokay gecko. But again, you just have to take the imformation or advice and do what you wish with it, you dont have to change your ways, but you also dont have to stay with them.
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Post by Marie on Nov 5, 2005 11:23:05 GMT -5
Well I just got to say I do not think it has been one sided. Everyone has been allowed to give any information they want and any opinions they wanted also. We do not censor here only moderate. As long as there is no flaming or abusive language, which so far there hasn't been, everyone will be allowed to share what they can and will.
In fact everyone except Steven has been for an occasional pinky.
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